The Southerner and how he is viewed

[Jason L Lewis]

Hi for those of you who know me welcome! for those of you who don't I am Jason a proud Southron and Arkansan. I am an average workin class citizen and gamer. However, I support a symbol that is divisive to Americans. I am here to explain myself and why I fly the Confederate battle flag/Navy jack. first off I'm sure most are aware but for those who dont know the CSA had 4 national flags and a vast amount of varying battle flags, namely the Bonnie Blue flag which was the basis for some of the aspects we see on the battle flag. the blue and white single star of the bonnie blue was the first national flag and a symbol rarely mentioned, it had its own derivative of the "Dixie" tune called bonnie blue flag hurrah. its blue field and white star was multiplied to eleven during the secession. then the flag of Alabama the saint Andrews cross. was taken as the basis for a battle standard by Hood in Tennessee making the eleven star cross flag. this flag then added stars for Missouri and Kentucky becoming the ANVs standard. this is sadly as far as the design would progress as the other southern states of Maryland, Delaware, West Virginia, and Kansas did not leave the union with the CSA. however Oklahoma and the New Mexico territories did. which is how modern Arizona, new Mexico, and Oklahoma got their borders. this is the prelude to modern iconography as officially there is 11-13 southern states, unofficially there are 20 states which fall under the dixie line/mason Dixon line. the Stars and bars, a variation of the colonial stars and stripes is the second confederate national flag which was confused with the Union in battle. resulting in the white field, which sadly represents the elite aristocrats views on white purity, and battle flag in the corner. however this one would also be subject to change due to the confusion of surrender if it hung low without a gust of wind. resulting in the final national flag the blood stained banner the white field again appears with a red bar representing the blood of confederates who died in 1861-1863. this flag also featured the ANV battle standard in the corner. this flag would be the one lowered from Appomattox courthouse in 1865. many people used the battle standard after the war as a symbol of rebellion, jesse james famed folk hero and train robber was a confederate private during the war and robbed trains as revenge for Missouri not leaving and for the loss of the war. the KKK flew the 3rd and 4th national flags originally due to their symbols of white supremacy on them the white fields, however after Bedford Forrest's passing the ANV standard was adopted to help gather average southerners support. this hurt the flags image and carried on well in to the 1900s. including in the civil rights era. when segregationist Dixiecrats, and the KKK flew the flag to show despise for mingling of races. however people such as myself who dotn see the issue as one of race but of wealth do not, i repeat, do not associate with the actions of these two organizations. its an issue of region, heart and home for most, in the north those who fly it are doing to show they are rednecks, and those in the KKK who fly it sadly still tarnish it with their hate. I'm descended from Cherokees and blacks alike. with documentation to prove it. and from what I've been told by my grandparents they all supported the flag. to them as archaic as it sounds its the symbol of their people. the saw the Union as a conquering nation and still despised it. but that's the old southern identity, as we have progressed we have become avid patriots and most are nice people. we just wanna support our dead ancestors who fought and died, namely Cherokees in my family who rode under Stand Wattie. others fly it to honor the ANV or Hood or Bragg. as more and more are taken down by the PC culture we lose more and more of our heart and soul as southrons. my ancestors would be sad to see it go. so would even people like Abraham Lincoln who played Dixie the night Lee surrendered to honor the bravery of the south. I've lived in the south my whole life and never once have I seen people lynch one because of skin or politics. we are the home of southern hospitality after all. anyone who only looks for the bad will find it. the key is to look at the good. which is what matters.

[Jason L Lewis]

further the Battle flag is flown to avoid the symbology of white supremacy. if we flew the actual national flag like some contenders suggest wed actually be supporting the hate they designed it with.

 

[Gabriella Dvørak]

You did your homework, I know there is no forum rules for this or if their is I've seen much worse discussed. 

I don't want to take away from this post so I'll start my argument later but to maybe think of an rebuttal when that time comes. Why does it matter? 

 

[Tsar]

As someone also born and raised in the south, I think southern is too broad a term for what you mean. I would say that the confederacy and the battle standards are not part of the Southern Identity. I would associate the identity of Family Food & Religion with it more so. While it was only a 4 year period, the Confederacy represented a deep mistrust between two halfs of a country that each operated differently and that mistrust was there even before the revolution. Is it stupid that some of monuments are being removed or renamed? No not really, while I do think its not worth the effort to do so now. They never really should have been raised in the first place, I dont believe there is a single country that has memorialized the losing side of a civil war to that extent. I dont think it worth the effort to remove them now, like just make it a government property and make it a civil war museum. As the main goal of museums is to properly educate and give context on the 

Part of the issue with the people and generals who were idolized is that they forget that these people were not loyal to the "Idea of the Southerner" but to each their own state. Which is why it was made as a confederacy as a structure as they hated the idea of a central entity having sway over them. They viewed the North as tyrannical because they felt their way of economy and by extension way of life would be upheaved if a certain thing  was changed. The average person in the war was fighting for their state or for the sake of an adventure rather than the actual ideals of the war.

4 hours ago, Jason L Lewis said:

further the Battle flag is flown to avoid the symbology of white supremacy

The issue with this and you even addressed this before in your previous paragraph, is that white supremacy is exactly what it is associated with even if it is not what it represents. Which probably is a perception that will not change for a long time. I get your personal justification Jason but regardless you have to acknowledge the historical context surrounding its perception and understand that its underlying trigger and motive for happening is not as noble of an intention as you may understand it.

Of course you are free to interpret its history as you want, but that does not change the facts upon which it was based.

Edited March 10, 2021 at 11:35 AM by Tsar

[Jason L Lewis]

@Tsar yes im aware of the context of how its viewed and i dont think my usage of the word southerner is to broad as all southerners are generalized on the idea of "backwards, racist, uneducated, cousin lovers" regardless of how different each state which has inherited the Dixie identity and evolved with it actually look independently. this is more of where i planned to take the discussion any way i just wanted context for where it started. southerners regardless of which state they are from or what they believe can and will be associated with the 4 things i have stated. in the words of the late great Johnny cash in the song southern accents, "youngins call it country, and the yankees call it dumb." this is an issue that will outlive the flags itself. people outside the south don't really understand what life is like they base everything off the actions of a minority of people, the KKK and people like the guys at Waco and cult leaders in the swamps, as what southerners behave like. and you cannot say this is false. as you have been in calls or parties where i have been associated with those things even before people find out i support the flag simply because i talk different. people try to shame each other for something out of their controls. i was born southern by the grace of god and i like to hold true to those words. and on the idea of family and religion tsar the battle flag holds true to both if you actually see how beautiful it is, the 13 stars representing the southern states which are themselves a family, the x being that of saint Andrew. who when crucified did not believe himself worthy of the same cross as Jesus and was lashed to an X instead. and the red white and blue mean the same things they do on our own stars and stripes, blood of heroes with innocence and the ideas of liberty in each color respectively. a conscious choice was made to choose the cross over the national flags to help separate from the KKK but the organization just adopted it after it fell out of favor. am i saying people wont be offended by that context, no, im saying that they shouldn't be however as the ones who simply honored the fallen raised it first the hateful people who followed and popularized it still are a minority even in the modern era where the amount of people who support the flag in polls now rests in the low 40% range. about 1% of that 40 are the racists, the rest of us just wanna live and let live and be proud of who we are where were from. but these one percent are vocal and they hurt the rest of us. for instance for those unaware every state has a recognized confederate memorial day, typically in april or may. with exceptions of october and january for robert e lee days in arkansas and alabama. the people who go out an honor heroes and decorate graves on this day are not the KKK. its they slowly dwindling support from the poor and lower middle class population. as some one born in oklahoma which is a former confederate territory with a massive number of apologists and supporters alike i remember seeing this kinda stuff everywhere. but no one ever screamed destroy the statue of stand watie or take your flags down there. i was very young of course but growing up in the cherokee regions of oklahoma it was a common thing to hear america described as a conquering nation by the older folks. the ones who remember the stories their fathers told them from after the war or the grand fathers of the war. cherokees risked alot going to bat for the CSA and today most people only know they exist because of a sentence or 2 in history books. they have been functionally isolated to oklahoma as a group and have suffered on the trail of tears and even more prior to the civil war. imagine how they feel seeing american flags over their homes and hearing how great and lucky they are to have been here for it. to them i imagine most who are respectful would leave the US flag alone, but im sure there are groups who are deeply offended by it. there is 2 sides to every coin. im just as bad at stereotyping northerners as pompous and self righteous assholes. and i think both sides of the isle need to come together and work to in generalizations like this as whole so that some day we can all go without callin eachother names or hatin one another. then maybe the cross will be saved from fading away. as the good will outshine the bad like it did ever so briefly after the civil war.

[DSB Nemesis]

As someone who also lives in the south with many southern family members, I know how important the confederate flag is to them and what it represents to them. My own family shares many ideals with you on this topic as to them it is a symbol of tradition and family. The issue is when white supremacists fly and use this flag. We as people now associate the confederate flag to white supremacy due to these people.

We see this type of behavior all the time. When radical terrorist flew planes into the twin towers, we blamed Muslims. Not just the radical terrorist but all of them. Due to a few extremists, we condemned an entire religion even though Muslim people are actually very kind and good people. And still 20 years later many still have this train of thought. 

So I get what it means to you to be very proud of your heritage and the confederate flag, but to many in todays age, it is a symbol of hate and repression and unfortunately it is only getting worse.  

The only flag that I am proud to wave is the American flag. As part of being in a very large military family, the American flag is the most important flag in our country to fly. It upsets and pains me to think there are people who despise the American flag and who disrespect it but I also know that in this free country that Americans gave the ultimate sacrifice so that people are able to voice their opinions and be able to have the freedoms they have. It is the right for every American to do what they feel is right as long as it does not take away from other peoples basic human rights. 

Honestly there should not be a separation in our country, there shouldn't be northerners and southerners, rednecks and yankees. We are all Americans regardless of what state we were born into. The sooner we can stop labeling each other, the sooner we can fix our issues. But I digress.

I appreciate and respect you for explaining your feelings and what you stand for.  

[Jason L Lewis]

i fully respect the sentiment of were all americans. thats partially why this is such an issue for me. i as an american am not only entitled to but have a unalienable right to free speech, this flag while associated with awful people is not their flag. we just want others to help us force the identity back to the hands of the good people who just wanna remember there fathers fathers and how they fought and died, not just in the civil war but at normandy, tripoli, seoul, in the jungles of vietnam, and now in the deserts against the muslims you bring up in you own statements. soldiers in the 1900s who were southern could and often would have battle flags painted on their helmets and carry bandanas or the flag itself as a piece of home. we also continue to honor some of the best like bragg and hood with massive bases where some of the best of the best train. the confederacy and the south are linked with america in such a way that to not be inclusive of both sides of an arguement is to be more divisive than those taking sides. i agree any generalization is bad, north south stereotypes, calling muslims terrorsits because of the actions of a few. the lists can go on on awful divisive language. but as a southerner every time i see this flag yanked down or burned it reminds me of the inevitable fight for americas flag we will one day face. it be abroad or at home one day our moment will come when those who support america must again unite to defend it and its flag, and you can bet even the most pro secession southerners will be there. myself included. i will always love my home in dixie and honor it and those whos blood stain its soil. same for my home in america and those who have fought to give me my right to choose. in the words of Robert E. Lee "Now we must look to the time when the blue and the grey will blend into a nation reborn with a greater strength and purpose." north and south as one. but he also said to forgive ones enemies. and i hope one day the people who are good can be forgiven for the actions of the few and evil.

[Accessing]

I think Tsar's really nailed it, I was told you were removed for having the confederate flag from the 19th fleet server once. While complaining they are supposed to be all inclusive, I couldn't explain to you before the meaning of being all inclusive to communities and cultures worldwide and the stance administrations have to take navigating a world of change in our faster paced conversations over Discord with multiple people, and my hotspot phone internet.

I want to answer in two parts. First I want to answer why your post is allowed, where freedom of speech ends and what to think about moving forward navigating a new norm for you.

Snickerdoodle explained it best, she isn't here on this site but you can catch her over Twitter, Waypoint and Reddit. She explained to me when I had used a slur in the Halo discord that got me banned. That none of what's said is a joke, that speech is free but the repercussions cost. We've seen this in celebrities and in this cancel culture, but at the root of it cancel culture is to prevent cultural biases from existing longer then they have, its to be progressive as a society. ComedicHermit is another Halo moderator to also share it in simple terms. What's accepted as "happy" or even used nonchalantly without context the word 'gay' is used as an pejorative. Being gay/bi/trans/ace/etc isn't a bad thing, it's a part of who someone is. Using it as an insult (even jokingly) reinforces cultural bias against that community. Its costed me being in the main Halo discord server.

Cultural bias is the phenomenon of interpreting and judging phenomena by standards inherent to one's own culture. The phenomenon is sometimes considered a problem central to social and human sciences, such as economics, psychology, anthropology, and sociology.

Cultural bias occurs when people of a culture make assumptions about conventions, including conventions of language, notation, proof and evidence. They are then accused of mistaking these assumptions for laws of logic or nature. Numerous such biases exist, concerning cultural norms for color, mate selection, concepts of justice, linguistic and logical validity, the acceptability of evidence, and taboos.

There is an ongoing commitment to positivity hate speech, racism or other toxic behavior won't be tolerated. People are being asked if they see it, to report it. The vast openness that is the internet converges on this point of tension as we're all looking to build an positive and inclusive community together.

What you believe in right now is under attack because in your community is the organization that co-opted your flag making the association with white supremacy to that flag. If I am honest you are the first I have ever seen to openly support the flag and attempt to validate the racism/treason behind i.

Co-opting an individual usually involves giving him or her a desirable role in the design or implementation of the change. Co-opting a group involves giving one of its leaders, or someone it respects, a key role in the design or implementation of a change. This is not a form of participation, however, because the initiators do not want the advice of the co-opted, merely his or her endorsement.

The outcome of such co-option will be specific to the individual case, and will depend on the relative strength of the co-opting and co-opted groups, the degree of alignment of their interests, and the vigor with which their members are prepared to pursue those interests. For example, when corporations green-wash their brands by co-opting the tone of environmentalism without any deep reform of their environmental impact, both environmental advocates and the general public must decide how to engage (or not) with the greenwashed result (accept it wholly, boycott it, apply pressure from another angle, ignore it, or some other path).

Your way of life was co-opted by the KKK and white supremacy and this is under the scope of the actual system designed from the constitution itself to unequal rights to colored people. There is little argument to justify your point than accepting and moving on to better educate yourself, those around you and the present. You've already mentioned co-opting Cherokee Indians which I cannot recollect a time that community would support what you have said.

Time moves forward, we make decisions based on our past experiences, tributes and your likeness to this flag whatever symbol it means to you. Right now it means a different thing and you must overcome it. Its a divisive image because its different in every community what is garnered from it. You need to come to realization that the world and what is American isn't in that flag anymore. It is a relic of a defeated idea that doesn't represent America of today.

 

[Jason L Lewis]

in response to the claim of myself being removed from the 19th, i was not, i left on decent terms with McNasty after making my side clear to him. i had requested the flag and the arkansas state flag be put on my helmet after meeting the requirements to do so. two other members had confederate flags on their helmets and i felt at the time specifically targeted as a new armor team had rolled in after a falling out with their previous designers. the new team had issues with my flag specifically and was not forcing anyone else to change it. when i went to the other two to inform them of the situation in solidarity we left and have since made our peace with the 19th. i might return one day to them if mcnasty allows my choice of helmet and if my schedule opens up for saturdays again.

as to co-opting remark i dont know your background so i do not know how familiar you are with my view on the flag or on southern identity as a whole. by definition sure this seems like co-opting but to me im just defending my families own past actions. having a portion of my family originate from virginia as my grandmother remarried a Lee just before i was born and having natives, myself being a acknowledged and documented cherokee, and people of hispanic and african origin in my family ive never been told my thought process is wrong, my extremely liberal sisters who are staunch anti-trumpers and BLM supporters have supported my love for my home here and the flag. because to them even as supporters of an organization seeking to destroy it and the monuments its not about race. im not saying the context isnt there like i said before. ill never deny it ill just present my sides. every coin has a heads and tails. im also a avid patriot as Nemesis will tell you i defend americas actions almost blindly to some extent. so to me i also dont view it as treasonous.

i hope one day more people like myself will band together to help reinvigorate this flag with the message of the people who arent being objectively evils support. i know a decent number and have considered forming a activist group to defend the flag locally as we do still love it here. recently a street in the neighboring town where most of us work was approved for a name change from pike. and we didnt have the kinda vocalness youd see from BLM or even centrists on beliefs. because alot are scared. and i understand the fears of my friends who may never openly speak against this removal. because some need their jobs or scholarships. every year i celebrate Lee/CSM day on octobers second monday which is approved by the state. the scar of our past will forever linger let us embrace what good we still can. just as much as we as a nation have never forgotten our actions on the trail of tears, or the spanish american and mexican american wars. imagine for instance how a texan would feel if america constantly back peddled on the war agianst mexico which helped keep texas safe long enough to join the union. or if we back peddled on the bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki. we did evil in the name of good it can be arguesd southerners saw slavery as an evil for good. much like rome did. robert e lee even made comments on this exact philosophy of thought. he was also a civil rights supporter after the war like general Beauregard. jackson had broken virginia law to educate slaves in his life and a black church in virginia today still honors him. going so far as to stain a window with his final words on it "let us cross over now and rest under the shade of the trees" is not all this but relics of this bygone era? or is there a message that exists that the other side needs to help us present just as much as we need to become vocal.

ill admit my speech can be fast and loose this whole thread was created in a sense of this exact sentiment of pushing a boundary. i invite discourse on the subject. i like hearing all the unique takes people have, tsar for instance disagrees with tearing the monuments down but instead offers preserving them with museums and parks. just like your own opinion of co-opting which is just fancy talk for calling me a lost causer, which i take no offense to so dont worry, i understand how it shares sentiment with co-opting. however there is real change that can be made. its not just saying one thing while allowing the opposite to happen. if it were up to me ANYONE who has supported any hate groups such as the KKK would be rounded up, put on trial, then shot. this eve includes myself as in high school when i went through every teens edgy phase. i believed alot of nazi party ideaology was sound. i had happily have my blood spilt to cleanse the sins of the evil who hijack this flag as a tool for their means. because i do understand how horribly wrong my beliefs were. and i understand now where i sit on beliefs as where my heart is.

will i ever back down in defending my ancestors, heritage and pride for my home, probably not. do i understand others views and hope to one day change them, yes i do. i was once told by Morris calling the south dixie land in this day in age was racist. i was confused as around here we play dixie at games, its on our phones. we wear shirts that say born in dixie or have the states with dixie land written around them. i wear a confederate flag mask for heaven sake. to me its just a way of showing my home off and being who i am. im a first and foremost an american, second a southerner, and third a arklahomie (people born in either oklahoma or arkansas who have spent long times in both states) lastly i am a conservative. nothing is above america as it should be. you can ask blue this i can barely operate discord, social media is terrifying to me and im 20. all my news is from local channels or fox. i see whats going on i hear what people say on the MSM and i hurt when people cry out at southern people as racists. its a minority who at this way and i wish there was more we as people could do to end their hate. 

my PSN friend brain came in to town for our buddies wedding, hes 20 like me and is from florida and is an african-american or whatever the PC term is i really dunno what is acceptable in that regard. the first day he was here i was worried how hed react if i wore my mask around or a bandana. so i didnt wear it. day two after talkin to him more in person and having a great time hangin at his hotel playin cards i wore it and he was surprised at first but he did not change how he thought of me. tsar also has never changed his opinion of me either and is vocal about his differing belief on the issue. i have only had positive experiences with people i know regarding the flag or my ideas. the only negatives were harry and the artists in the 19th. which is fine as clearly i was not as close to harry as i had believed and the 19th was just that to me the 19th with the exception of mcnasty who i am still on good terms with. there are plenty of people i look up to and repect like H.K. Edgerton, a modern black confederate who tours the south defending monuments, doing ceremonies for other peoples funerals who wish for him to honor them with a confederate funeral, and who carries a 32x32 battle flag on a standard pole like soldiers wouldve carried. hes a hero to me. and a great man. i hope maybe this can help explain things more for you shawn as im always willing to stand by this point. Dixie is home, Arklahoma is heart, and America is my soul. if there is an issue im willig to change my pictures etc. but never will i ever drop my beliefs on pressure or fear. words immortalized by the CSA were Deo Vindice, God Protects in latin. and i do believe in the verbage of god protects the south. maybe i am backwards. and frankly thats okay with me.

"because you've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything" - Aaron Tippin 1991

[Gabriella Dvørak]

The flag was co-opted for sure but the South is not co-opted with White Supremacy anymore than it is with Louisiana Popeyes Chicken. I have family that live in Alabama, the state is southern and what that means to people is that the infrastructure is less so, the towns are more rural and the houses are cheaper. The south is an objective term to define the southern part of the United States but to be a southerner is to mean so much more than what you're saying.

In a lot of ways, no one is making this connection between being being southern and white supremacy but you. Its an odd world we live in to be raised in an environment and not think openly of how others may perceive our actions even when we justify it. 

I'm not a social science major so I don't know exactly what culture bias and co-opted means outside of Shawn's post but I think you would be interested in it. 

[Accessing]

On 3/11/2021 at 1:37 AM, Jason L Lewis said:

as to co-opting remark i dont know your background so i do not know how familiar you are with my view on the flag or on southern identity as a whole. by definition sure this seems like co-opting but to me im just defending my families own past actions. having a portion of my family originate from virginia as my grandmother remarried a Lee just before i was born and having natives, myself being a acknowledged and documented cherokee, and people of hispanic and african origin in my family ive never been told my thought process is wrong, my extremely liberal sisters who are staunch anti-trumpers and BLM supporters have supported my love for my home here and the flag. because to them even as supporters of an organization seeking to destroy it and the monuments its not about race. im not saying the context isnt there like i said before. ill never deny it ill just present my sides. every coin has a heads and tails. im also a avid patriot as Nemesis will tell you i defend americas actions almost blindly to some extent. so to me i also dont view it as treasonous.

Sadly, this is beyond the both of us. It doesn't matter how I view or think because the general consensus is that, I like to argue in the waves of it, the sea of thoughts society is. You could be wrong and in the right at the same time for these situations and the discussions. Many communities will not allow you to talk on the subject because of that. I am not sure to what acts connecting BLM has anything more to do with your topic, that should be another topic entirely. We can all criticize how things went down its more important going forward to do with what's already done.

I'm an avid patriot, my family is military from southern Georgia but I've lived abroad. I think it is important to defend your country and support it. If you pay taxes that is owed to you, I hope you voted too as someone patriotic you should be exercising every right/powers you have as a citizen to your country.

On 3/11/2021 at 1:37 AM, Jason L Lewis said:

i hope one day more people like myself will band together to help reinvigorate this flag with the message of the people who arent being objectively evils support. i know a decent number and have considered forming a activist group to defend the flag locally as we do still love it here. recently a street in the neighboring town where most of us work was approved for a name change from pike. and we didnt have the kinda vocalness youd see from BLM or even centrists on beliefs. because alot are scared. and i understand the fears of my friends who may never openly speak against this removal. because some need their jobs or scholarships. every year i celebrate Lee/CSM day on octobers second monday which is approved by the state. the scar of our past will forever linger let us embrace what good we still can. just as much as we as a nation have never forgotten our actions on the trail of tears, or the spanish american and mexican american wars. imagine for instance how a texan would feel if america constantly back peddled on the war agianst mexico which helped keep texas safe long enough to join the union. or if we back peddled on the bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki. we did evil in the name of good it can be arguesd southerners saw slavery as an evil for good. much like rome did. robert e lee even made comments on this exact philosophy of thought. he was also a civil rights supporter after the war like general Beauregard. jackson had broken virginia law to educate slaves in his life and a black church in virginia today still honors him. going so far as to stain a window with his final words on it "let us cross over now and rest under the shade of the trees" is not all this but relics of this bygone era? or is there a message that exists that the other side needs to help us present just as much as we need to become vocal.

Time and history has always been shared in the perspectives of how people WANT to see it, not ever how it is an not ever an overarching problematic decisions made. I think that taking down these statues, renaming streets and firing qualified working class because of the disagreement they have with movements isn't the best solution to the problem at hand. It doesn't help toppling over rocks that lost their meaning to you as others like yourself still hold sentiment to it. I wrote countless papers on Robert E. Lee as he's a dynamic leader but let's think about how that war started. Let's talk about how the general had a choice but chose not to join the Union. It's as simple as that, aiding the system that is not for colored people but- as we come to a bigger realization, not for working people either. We're not backpedaling when these common things fall from our norm, we're evolving as society does and the Internet aides in the progressive direction to unity.

Doing things in evil for the name of good... If you put yourself in the situation of the victims to anything evil I don't think you can justify the acts that followed. Knowingly being blind to things is arrogance, blindly following things is stupid with what god's gift of thought between your ears surely you would want to think on the things around you. But in this whole paragraph, theirs a time and place for everything. Right now the nation is trying to heal, tensions rose because in the pandemic the govt failed you, me and most of the upper middle to lower classes. This failure doesn't need fingers to be pointed but only solutions to be made.

On 3/11/2021 at 1:37 AM, Jason L Lewis said:

ill admit my speech can be fast and loose this whole thread was created in a sense of this exact sentiment of pushing a boundary. i invite discourse on the subject. i like hearing all the unique takes people have, tsar for instance disagrees with tearing the monuments down but instead offers preserving them with museums and parks. just like your own opinion of co-opting which is just fancy talk for calling me a lost causer, which i take no offense to so dont worry, i understand how it shares sentiment with co-opting. however there is real change that can be made. its not just saying one thing while allowing the opposite to happen. if it were up to me ANYONE who has supported any hate groups such as the KKK would be rounded up, put on trial, then shot. this eve includes myself as in high school when i went through every teens edgy phase. i believed alot of nazi party ideaology was sound. i had happily have my blood spilt to cleanse the sins of the evil who hijack this flag as a tool for their means. because i do understand how horribly wrong my beliefs were. and i understand now where i sit on beliefs as where my heart is.

will i ever back down in defending my ancestors, heritage and pride for my home, probably not. do i understand others views and hope to one day change them, yes i do. i was once told by Morris calling the south dixie land in this day in age was racist. i was confused as around here we play dixie at games, its on our phones. we wear shirts that say born in dixie or have the states with dixie land written around them. i wear a confederate flag mask for heaven sake. to me its just a way of showing my home off and being who i am. im a first and foremost an american, second a southerner, and third a arklahomie (people born in either oklahoma or arkansas who have spent long times in both states) lastly i am a conservative. nothing is above america as it should be. you can ask blue this i can barely operate discord, social media is terrifying to me and im 20. all my news is from local channels or fox. i see whats going on i hear what people say on the MSM and i hurt when people cry out at southern people as racists. its a minority who at this way and i wish there was more we as people could do to end their hate. 

my PSN friend brain came in to town for our buddies wedding, hes 20 like me and is from florida and is an african-american or whatever the PC term is i really dunno what is acceptable in that regard. the first day he was here i was worried how hed react if i wore my mask around or a bandana. so i didnt wear it. day two after talkin to him more in person and having a great time hangin at his hotel playin cards i wore it and he was surprised at first but he did not change how he thought of me. tsar also has never changed his opinion of me either and is vocal about his differing belief on the issue. i have only had positive experiences with people i know regarding the flag or my ideas. the only negatives were harry and the artists in the 19th. which is fine as clearly i was not as close to harry as i had believed and the 19th was just that to me the 19th with the exception of mcnasty who i am still on good terms with. there are plenty of people i look up to and repect like H.K. Edgerton, a modern black confederate who tours the south defending monuments, doing ceremonies for other peoples funerals who wish for him to honor them with a confederate funeral, and who carries a 32x32 battle flag on a standard pole like soldiers wouldve carried. hes a hero to me. and a great man. i hope maybe this can help explain things more for you shawn as im always willing to stand by this point. Dixie is home, Arklahoma is heart, and America is my soul. if there is an issue im willig to change my pictures etc. but never will i ever drop my beliefs on pressure or fear. words immortalized by the CSA were Deo Vindice, God Protects in latin. and i do believe in the verbage of god protects the south. maybe i am backwards. and frankly thats okay with me.

I have the same wall of text respond for this.

1. Co-opting is best exercised when you are unaware of it, I'm not calling you a lost causer I'm informing you of the active operation that is your enemies using your livelihood as the guise for the continued hate they spew in the community. How can you fight against your brand being taken over, show growth. Bring these ideas and your peers to study your opinion, sharpen the mind by reading more perspectives and do less of that, blindly following. Ask questions.
    
2. The killing of people doesn't solve things (surprisingly) no KKK members should be shot. We sure can't condone violence on anyone, what needs to be done is creating lines of communication and showing people compassion. Have you ever seen BlacKkKlansmen? Its a good movie on how people can come together should we communicate. We've seen words go further than and embodiment of mass murders carrying a message. We're not in those times where feudal era of Japan, clans that disagreed with the shogun were entirely wiped out and books burned. We have the internet and freedoms to you.
    
3. If you asked me if it was racist I would say yes. I do think in this day in age is racist. Times have changed, the meaning of words do too. Becoming adaptable is the best you can do for yourself, people who have confederate imaging are usually one sided, people are afraid of them not because they are white but because they may have a lower IQ, not be able to comprehend or think of consequences when executing certain actions. I see a confederate flag I might think that guys a dumbass, that was was so long ago and America came on top. To me being in a military family the confederate flag is anti-U.S. for the US doesn't stand for any of the values that era had. This is just one of those things we can agree to disagree on, as I don't think anything could change my mind on supporting the losing side of a war over 200 years ago.
    
4. You have an online friend you met in person and he is black, congratulations. This is an easy point of contest. You have a black friend, but you don't know him as a black friend and culture. He isn't vulnerable with you, he isn't going to be and his culture was learning about yours, history is predominantly written in your favor people are educated and systems built on this. Families generationally pass it down. Just because he doesn't object to what you do doesn't mean he's not against it. No one should of course be so shallow to hate others for their beliefs because its important to grow as a community that we can all understand each other. I'm not asking you to get to know him, but if you do you'll be that much closer to him.
    
5. I can't say anything about people here making decisions based outside of Halo, everyone knows you hate Harry at this point. That's not necessarily the environment we want to foster but how do you prove it? How can someone prove they are joking around or that their decisions made here are not in ulterior motive? ONI is very systematic, we want this to be a place where anything you do we can point to. Key performance indicators, this person did 'x' to be rewarded. Similarly for being removed or demoted. I would look to figuring out how to prove someone is making decisions on a basis outside of what we would call these key performance indicators.

The CSA, Dixie and much of the South you know is racist to me, not the South itself though. Not the families I know struggling every day over there just above poverty line. This is an open community, but your ideas will be challenged. It will be questioned, us agreeing to keep this kind of conversation is to help you grow, because expelling it altogether only leads to closed door resentment to parties that didn't allow a voice.

As you know, ONI is very liberal to protocols and regulations for the fun of Halo. If what you do impedes someone's participation in the game I'll ask you to stop. Otherwise you represent yourself, you represent ONI and what is an ONI agent.

[ADM D Kilkin]

One of the last threads I would have ever imagined to be on this site. Usually these kinds of conviction are just based on your environment and how you are raised. It's great that you are open to conversation though and agreeing to disagree. Its usually an HIGHCOM/Officer's discourse to discuss these things because we know we won't offend each other as open minded and more centrist, futurist people.